DPS chart in raids

  • As described in the subject, I would like to suggest that we DPS chart to be shown in raids. Why? Plenty of reasons, i'll just name some more obvious ones:


    1. This will allow us to know where we stand and find ways to improve our stats/equipment.
    2. Besides that I think it encourage players to become better, which is a form of fun in my point of view.
    3. Many games also have dps chart :) and I found it really useful personally (and i believe it helped many others too)
    4. Currently, in raids, many people hit the boss and its really hard to see your own damage and how much u helped in the raid. Theres also other factors that affect your overall damage to the boss, hitting the highest max damage doesnt mean u actually done well in the raid. I think with the dps chart implemented, we will know exactly how well we did and from there we can pinpoint what we may have done wrong.


    Although I highly doubt gameforge will put such effort to make a dps chart and would rather put more effort in bringing more profit making contents, i still suggested it anyway since i really hope this will be implemented someday :beer: Any other positive/negatives views on this suggestion? Feel free to share :thumbsup:

  • this would be great as long as the chart is available to the player only, not the whole team. because in my experience, everyone being able to see the dps chart of everyone else only creates toxicity. and i'm both guilty and a victim of that.

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  • Yea it does create toxicity sometimes, i thought about that too but didnt want to go too deep on the topic, anyway yea, if toxicity is the main concern then making it view-able only to the individuals would solve the problem.

  • I have to agree with Gandalof and so yes they would need to make it individual only.


    In all the MMO games I have seen that all the team can see the DPS, it puts unnecessary stress to people and focus only on dps and don't do any mechanics or whatever. (Although ok we don't have any hard mechanics in nos to worry about)
    And of course the toxicity and even kicking people because they got known for not doing enough dps considering their gear.


    So if we want it as a tool to self-improve then it sounds good.

  • I have to agree with Gandalof and so yes they would need to make it individual only.


    In all the MMO games I have seen that all the team can see the DPS, it puts unnecessary stress to people and focus only on dps and don't do any mechanics or whatever. (Although ok we don't have any hard mechanics in nos to worry about)
    And of course the toxicity and even kicking people because they got known for not doing enough dps considering their gear.


    So if we want it as a tool to self-improve then it sounds good.

    Well there could be a box to tick or button to push to allow others see your total damage. DPS itself isnt too informative as % damage increase in weapons is pure random. Statistically it would be better to see the total output per raid to notice a pattern, which is more reliable compared to dps at the time and maybe easier for system to count?
    The suggestion is very nice, although considering how much time it took to change the visible damage limit... really really low hopes on it getting implemented.

  • DPS itself isnt too informative as % damage increase in weapons is pure random. Statistically it would be better to see the total output per raid to notice a pattern, which is more reliable compared to dps at the time and maybe easier for system to count?

    well it depends on the game, but "dps chart" or whatever it's referred to as.. usually have more than one metric to measure with. it has stuff like total damage, total dps (total dmg/total time), dps in x amount ...etc. it could even include other stuff like damage taken, healing done ...etc. so it really depends on how much effort they wanna put into it, but the norm is that there are more than 1 stat being measured because it could be very misleading.

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  • Well there could be a box to tick or button to push to allow others see your total damage. DPS itself isnt too informative as % damage increase in weapons is pure random. Statistically it would be better to see the total output per raid to notice a pattern, which is more reliable compared to dps at the time and maybe easier for system to count?The suggestion is very nice, although considering how much time it took to change the visible damage limit... really really low hopes on it getting implemented.

    Yeah, individual only would be good to prevent toxicity.


    And I didn't make it very clear but yeah it should include values like “Max damage dealt", " overall damage", "contribution % in that raid", "Time to complete raid" and "Dps". Anyway with that being said, will we get this suggestion forwarded to gameforge? :beer:

  • Reminds me of Wow addons.
    Anyways i agree to be individual.


    Bad idea to add this. people will get mad , cus i out DPS all of you :<

    Chipy owning the raid dps 2019 colorized ;

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  • 2k19: chipy used 100 nd and got me onyx in wheel ;D

    id prefer the following be added for raids: total damage dealth and who pulled buttons


    might be a tangent to the thread: but I actually think the stats for all players should be accessible by the host. hosts take time to get seals, host and organize - it allows them to better understand who is leeching in raid.

    i understand toxicity/raid exclusiveness exists in the game but I don't think the implementation of this idea would increase them. Those that continue to solo raid, raid with fam or friends, etc. will continue to do that primarily because they don't like randoms.

  • 2k19: chipy used 100 nd and got me onyx in wheel ;D

    id prefer the following be added for raids: total damage dealth and who pulled buttons


    might be a tangent to the thread: but I actually think the stats for all players should be accessible by the host. hosts take time to get seals, host and organize - it allows them to better understand who is leeching in raid.

    i understand toxicity/raid exclusiveness exists in the game but I don't think the implementation of this idea would increase them. Those that continue to solo raid, raid with fam or friends, etc. will continue to do that primarily because they don't like randoms.

    I am a bit uncertain about the rest of the post.

    But ohh boi.

    Displaying who pulled the buttons is a must !

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  • 2k19: chipy used 100 nd and got me onyx in wheel ;D

    id prefer the following be added for raids: total damage dealth and who pulled buttons


    might be a tangent to the thread: but I actually think the stats for all players should be accessible by the host. hosts take time to get seals, host and organize - it allows them to better understand who is leeching in raid.

    i understand toxicity/raid exclusiveness exists in the game but I don't think the implementation of this idea would increase them. Those that continue to solo raid, raid with fam or friends, etc. will continue to do that

    Personally i feel if toxicity is not the a problem, this idea is no doubt good to have. And actually I feel most people already know who are the main DPSer in raids usually. They just dont know the exact figures, and besides they cant have full team of the top DPS players, so i actually feel it will more likely help the players to become better than bring much toxicity. Also I'm sure if someone were to care about damage, he can just pick on the one he see hitting the lowest dmg, dont have to be from the dps chart itself.

  • Personally i feel if toxicity is not the a problem, this idea is no doubt good to have. And actually I feel most people already know who are the main DPSer in raids usually. They just dont know the exact figures, and besides they cant have full team of the top DPS players, so i actually feel it will more likely help the players to become better than bring much toxicity. Also I'm sure if someone were to care about damage, he can just pick on the one he see hitting the lowest dmg, dont have to be from the dps chart itself.

    I beg to differ.

    If the raid isn't % then the hosters would usually look for the best possible dps to get their raids done faster,this tool would just make their job easier.

    Ok they would probably add their alts/friends/etc first but you get the ideea, they don't really care to help the players that deal less dmg.

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  • I agree with Gandalof (although it pains me to admit it!) about this. Whilst stats showing the average DPS and the maximum DPS would be useful in helping players improve and judge exactly where they stand compared with the rest of the team, if it wasn't kept completely anonymous it would lead to more toxicity.


    Raid hosts want fast raids and many can already be very selective about who they add to their teams, preferring either family or friends. Of the few 'free' raid spaces that remain, they'll, of course, go to a recommended 'friend of friends' or anyone else thought to do potentially good damage. If hosts add their own alts, they'll expect good DPS from the rest of the team to make up some of the difference. Thus it's already pretty difficult for newer players to be given the chance to join raids. Adding a name-and-shame DPS rank would only make it harder.


    I like the idea, though individual stats would need to be kept private.

  • I agree with Gandalof (although it pains me to admit it!) about this. Whilst stats showing the average DPS and the maximum DPS would be useful in helping players improve and judge exactly where they stand compared with the rest of the team, if it wasn't kept completely anonymous it would lead to more toxicity.


    Raid hosts want fast raids and many can already be very selective about who they add to their teams, preferring either family or friends. Of the few 'free' raid spaces that remain, they'll, of course, go to a recommended 'friend of friends' or anyone else thought to do potentially good damage. If hosts add their own alts, they'll expect good DPS from the rest of the team to make up some of the difference. Thus it's already pretty difficult for newer players to be given the chance to join raids. Adding a name-and-shame DPS rank would only make it harder.


    I like the idea, though individual stats would need to be kept private.

    This could be used as a reason to ban alts just saying.

    But she is right, making it public to all the team members is just gonna put some pressure on the weaker members and put them in danger to being kicked out.

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  • But she is right, making it public to all the team members is just gonna put some pressure on the weaker members and put them in danger to being kicked out.

    if a raid host is an egoistic person yes. but i dont think that there are too many of these.

    secondly, if these people have low damage, maybe they should improve their equipment a bit. I dont like to see a 3+0 lv 85 in my daily raids (when I do them on channel 1, rarely) and I just ask them to be in buff sps and try to not die alot (healing with pots, bringing mobs to boss etc)

    if a person is doing low damage and always dies I just brush it off, as it is very situational and happens not that often. on US maybe its an issue. but we're not really loking into only US cylloan.

    thirdly, one can make their own raidleaders blacklist and serve them some justice in other way. I wouldnt put pressure on anyone about their damage except my friends when I see that they are trying to slack.

    Raid hosts want fast raids and many can already be very selective about who they add to their teams, preferring either family or friends.

    it's not going to make normal people toxic, it will make toxic people even more toxic. and that may be a good thing to do because then server will know who to hunt down or try to reason with in the language of pain and power

    If a person takes in low level players into raid now even though he/she knows that the damage is low, then what will change if you bring open dps chart?

    And actually I feel most people already know who are the main DPSer in raids usually.

    Agree on that one.


    Also I'm sure if someone were to care about damage, he can just pick on the one he see hitting the lowest dmg, dont have to be from the dps chart itself.

    true



    This could be used as a reason to ban alts just saying.

    um no, its pretty obvious which player is alt and which is not. Also, whats wrong with that?


    I like the idea, though individual stats would need to be kept private.

    Even though I said that some stats must have a box or button to be enabled, now I think that toxic people will push others to press that button or kick...



    If the raid isn't % then the hosters would usually look for the best possible dps to get their raids done faster,

    well how about pets/partners for % raids? bring pets or kick. you make low damage because pets/partners dont have dolls, kick.



    might be a tangent to the thread: but I actually think the stats for all players should be accessible by the host. hosts take time to get seals, host and organize - it allows them to better understand who is leeching in raid.

    i understand toxicity/raid exclusiveness exists in the game but I don't think the implementation of this idea would increase them. Those that continue to solo raid, raid with fam or friends, etc. will continue to do that primarily because they don't like randoms.

    again i will reiterate my point (which also supports the idea of the quote)

    raid host can decide whether the person does damage or not, and should one do some or not (eg. holys probably will stay at the bottom of dps chart, but you can look up how are they doing throughout the raid - you dont have 5 holys in team do you?


    about solo raids: yeah it will not change anything except that i will push my friends who are doing duo/trio raids with me to do more damage or see how bad they are. Not in an aggressive way, just so they understand that they need to play a lil more active (eg I have 2 c45+ dmgers in the duo raids with 8 chars overall, while my friends has c38 char and c22 char and does lower dmg. It doesnt mean that I will ditch him but I will push him)

  • it's not going to make normal people toxic, it will make toxic people even more toxic. and that may be a good thing to do because then server will know who to hunt down or try to reason with in the language of pain and power

    Whilst I think I see your point, I'm doubtful as to whether it will be as straightforward as that. As you know, raid hosting is far more than simply gathering materials and using a raid-seal. It also relies a lot on the player's reputation for hosting raids - known raid hosts will find it far easier to gather a team than an unknown player. Raid hosts want quick raids. Raid members want a guaranteed win. In my own experience, many will have a tendency to brush aside any toxicity they see so long as it isn't directed at them, particularly if 'making a stand' against toxicity may cost them a place in a good raid team by a regular and known raid leader.


    This is my own view based purely on my experiences playing NosTale so it may not be the case on all servers.


    If a person takes in low level players into raid now even though he/she knows that the damage is low, then what will change if you bring open dps chart?

    I used lower level players just as an easy example (and an over-simplistic one, perhaps!) but you don't need to be a new player or a low level to have lower damage than other players. Two players may both be level 99+30, but their damage can still vary considerably because one of the two players had far more luck with their equipment betting, SP perfection etc. than the other player, for example.


    I agree that even without such a chart, toxicity still exists and many raid host's will still be able to identify someone dealing particularly low damage, though that still doesn't mean it should be made even easier. The raid host may already complain at a player about their DPS being the lowest but putting such information into a precise quantity, highly accessible, and more easily comparable to the DPS of the other raid members will only likely exacerbate an already existing issue.


    Even though I said that some stats must have a box or button to be enabled, now I think that toxic people will push others to press that button or kick...

    Yep. The anonymity would have to be a set feature, not an optional one, otherwise it would become a demand of joining a raid team.

  • I see alot of people talking about how "it's not good for people who don't do damage" or "it will be too toxic if everyone can see other peoples damage"
    But correct me if i'm wrong, isn't the whole point of knowing how much damage you do to see other peoples damage aswell so you can compare if you're doing good damage or not? If i saw "you did 70k" I would think "oh ok but is that good or not?"

    How else am I suppose to know if i'm doing good damage or not unless I compare it with someone else?

    And I don't really understand why you would be against implementing an idea because it "creates toxicity" there's plenty of toxicity in nostale and it comes down to the type of person you're dealing with.
    I also don't believe that you should be "hiding" someone being trash in a raid and leeching.

    I think the idea is excellent if it had everyones output damage, otherwise it's just useless.

  • Summary so far:


    Pros:

    • allows players to understand how they rank in comparison to other players in their role as a DPS character
    • allows hosts and/or players to know explicitly who is leeching/afking, needs improvement in eq and raid knowledge (if applicable)


    Cons:

    • may create a situation of higher toxicity within the player base
    • increases time spent in forming and completing a raid


    Possible revisions to idea:

    • Show other intangible stats such as - healing contributed for support sps & CC score for debuff sps and players with unique partners+pets
    • Allow host to see information/rankings of all players (haven't seen actual counterpoints to this or am i an idiot)


    Quote


    it's not going to make normal people toxic, it will make toxic people even more toxic. and that may be a good thing to do because then server will know who to hunt down or try to reason with in the language of pain and power

    I think Jekyll is correct in saying players become more toxic if they are labeled "toxic" in certain game modes: for example if I see a player who hunts my family join my ib--> kill out or if I see a player that kicked me out of IB all win/crashed IC (outdated example) in arena --> perm hunt. Players labeled toxic tend to be marginalized even more for being toxic (not saying this is good or bad for the player base but this is the result)

    Quote

    It also relies a lot on the player's reputation for hosting raids - known raid hosts will find it far easier to gather a team than an unknown player. Raid hosts want quick raids. Raid members want a guaranteed win. In my own experience, many will have a tendency to brush aside any toxicity they see so long as it isn't directed at them, particularly if 'making a stand' against toxicity may cost them a place in a good raid team by a regular and known raid leader.

    I have a differing experience. A player on UK was well known for being a toxic and great PVE player - I joined this player for multiple weekend raid spams which resulted in a lot of gold for me however I was flamed continuously for any minute mistake which the player considered to lengthen a raid even by a few seconds. Despite how this host may be considered "toxic" I tolerated it for a brief amount of time due to the reward it gave me (I sold my soul :thumbup: ) Eventually, lots of players I knew marginalized this host due to shady/suspicious IRL behavior and his "toxic" attitude.


    Quote

    about solo raids: yeah it will not change anything except that i will push my friends who are doing duo/trio raids with me to do more damage or see how bad they are. Not in an aggressive way, just so they understand that they need to play a lil more active (eg I have 2 c45+ dmgers in the duo raids with 8 chars overall, while my friends has c38 char and c22 char and does lower dmg. It doesnt mean that I will ditch him but I will push him)

    supporting the overarching theme: soloing or doing "restricted" raids doesn't mean its toxic. currently in UK the player base is really small but a fam head and I both host sp raids in ch1 allowing people to join reguardless of eq. yes we use several alts, but we also allow fam mems and other raiders join. however, the priority has typically been: host chars > fam/friends still active > randoms. these fam mems + randoms that typically join have varying eq from r5+6-8 to 95/96 (lol who has this in UK though rlly) r7+8.


    i think the main issue in the debate against the chart is: hosts that are toxic now have a justifiable reason for being toxic to players. however, I think this is more of an issue about player behavior than the actual suggestion. Ill quote the game rules on behavior:


    Quote
    • Please be kind to other players and to the staff and treat them respectively. Any rude, threatening, insulting, racist, drug-related, radical right- or left-wing and/or vulgar behaviour is strictly forbidden and will be swiftly penalized.
    • Please note that there is a difference with what someone find offensive - felt insults are not always insults. Every player will react differently on certain things. The NosTale Staff and only the NosTale Staff will determine what is and what is not seen as offensive, this will be determined on a case by case basis.



    Hosts just need to realize they should be giving constructive criticsm or responding to players that are rejected such as replying: "sorry full" or "sorry, i don't want you to join since I think you need to improve your equip" additionally, players need to stop being so melodramatic "omg ill never be able to improve because i can't join ____ raids"


    ^ someone insert millennial snowflake jokes