How would you balance Sps?

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    • How would you balance Sps?

      i know an sp balance is never gonna come but im bored and just want to see and compare what im thinking with other people.

      i will only mention sps 1 to 8 of the 3 main classes, but feel free to include martial artist sps or other "fluff" sps if you wish to do so. anyway, here it goes.

      Swordman:

      SP1 - Warrior:
      i would just change [Iron Skin] duration to 3mins and same cd as its duration, because only 30secs is a joke. and nerf range damage decrease to around 30~40% maybe? also add magic damage decease to maybe 10% or 15%.

      SP2 - Blade:
      i wouldn't change anything tbh. it's pretty good but not op, so pretty balanced in my eyes.

      SP3 - Crusader:
      i would change the 2 aoes it got to "around enemy in 3 cell" so pretty much the same area as the ultimate skill, reason being those skills aoe is just horrible. and this would really help this card without making it too strong.
      i would increase buff duration (and cd of course) to 4mins, not really that important but it would be nice.
      and lastly, i would nerf [Triple Charge]. it is waaay too good and i don't know to what numbers i would make it as.. but i'd probably make it a flat buff instead of progressively increasing one (just to make things simpler and consistent), and make it like 20~25% for attack increase and probably same number for crit damage decrease.

      SP4 - Berserker:

      increase [Frenzied Attack] aoe from 2 cells to 3 cells. honestly 2 is just too small.
      remove [Break Armour] wind-up animation. (basically it will instantly cast instead of standing still there for 2 hours and end up "missing" cus the target moved)

      SP5 - Gladiator:
      i wouldn't change anything. if it gets buffed it will be op and not balanced, so i wouldn't touch it. i think it's ok where it is.

      SP6 - Monk:
      all sp6 cards have a really interesting fun and unique play styles, they are without a doubt the best designed sps in terms of gameplay. the only issue with them is they are too op. a simple fix for that is small decrease in numbers overall (buffs and skills damage). so just that. (this will be a re-occurring theme). no need talk about a specific skill, just small decrease in all or most skills would bring it in-line.

      SP7 - Death Reaper:
      well i never actually played it so i can't say much.

      SP 8 - Renegade:
      i think it's fine the way it is. having 2 elements is pretty cool feature. but yeah, i don't think it's op or anything.



      Archer:

      SP1 - Ranger:
      i would make [Hawk Eye] a self-buff only. honestly i don't understand why they made it possible to give to others, it makes too strong on specific cards (looking at you scout) and i don't think that's needed.
      i would also make [Triple Arrows] aoe to around enemy in 3 cells. just to make it more consistent and actually useful.

      SP2 - Assassin:
      i would give it a better invisibility. whether the old one or something else i don't care. i don't understand why it got changed in the first place tbh.
      everything else i think is fine. yes, even the new crit buff. and i think it's better actually, it emphasizes the fact that it's you know.. an ASSASSIN.. which is all about taking down their target quickly. so this new buff really makes sense. the only thing that i might wanna change is making all buffs received duration to 5 secs instead of the weird 5-3-4 secs respectively for each buff.

      SP3 - Destroyer:
      i honestly don't know what to do to save it. it needs a rework to bunch of skills, because i don't think trying to balance its current skills is ever gonna work. it's cool and and all, but the reality is that it's only a debuff slave and nothing else, it's pretty much bad at everything besides that. so yeah in short, needs a rework.

      SP4 - Wildkeeper:
      the only thing i would do is make its buffs (wolf and bear) a self-buff only. the light res buff can stay aoe. and same as ranger's hawk eye.. i really dont understand why they made wkb aoe. this is something i very much disliked a lot.

      SP5 - Cannon Shooter:
      i think it's fine honestly, a strong sp for sure but i don't think it crosses the line of being op. so i would keep it as it is.

      SP6 - Scout:
      pretty much repeat what i said for monk. really fun sp to play as, but too op. just needs some reductions in numbers and it will be fine.

      SP7 - Demon Hunter:
      haven't played it, can't say much. but from my very limited interactions with it.. it looked strong but not op. (again, i don't really know so could be wrong on this one)

      SP8 - Avenging Angel:
      same as demon hunter, haven't really played it but with my limited interactions with it, it seemed strong but not op.



      Mage:

      SP1 - Red Mage:
      became a really decent sp after the last changes, the only think i would do is decrease mana consumption by A LOT on all skills. like seriously, it shouldn't take that much mana for the first sp. but other than that, good sp. wouldn't change anything else.

      SP2 - Holy Mage:
      a great support sp, don't think any changes are needed.

      SP3 - Blue Mage:
      same as red mage, it became a pretty good sp after the last sp balance. and it doesn't have any issues imo. (and no, i don't think it needs mana shield like all other mage sps, the shield it got is unique and i like that. and it's fine the way it is). so yeah, wouldn't change anything.

      SP4 - Dark Gunner:

      i think it's fine the way it is (amazing in pvp, and in some pve situations it's good). so i wouldn't change a thing.

      SP5 - Volcano:
      a really strong card overall both in pvp and pve, and once again i think this is a strong sp that doesn't cross the op line so i wouldn't change anything.

      SP6 - Tide Lord:

      same as previously mentioned for monk and scout. fun sp, needs small tweaks in numbers.

      SP7 - Seer:
      haven't really played it myself but again, from my limited interactions with it.. it seemed like a really strong pvp card and meh in pve.. so it seems fine the way it is (but again, could be wrong because i don't know that much).

      SP8 - Archmage:
      i know i sound like a broken record by repeating this but, it is yet another what i think is a strong sp that isn't op. so i wouldn't change anything.


      in conclusion: i would like to hear what you think about how i would make balance changes, both things you agree and disagree with. and how would you make balance changes yourself? and remember, the changes will never ever actually happen and no one from the devs gonna read this at all, this will be just a discussion between us, but regardless i thought it would be fun to let other people know what i think, and hear your opinions in return.
      English Gandora the Dragon of Destruction

      Chinese 破壞龍 鋼多拉

      French Gandora le Dragon de la Destruction

      German Gandora der Drache der Zerstörung

      Italian Gandora, il Drago della Distruzione

      Korean 파괴룡 간드라

      Portuguese Gandora o Dragão da Destruição

      Spanish Gandora el Dragón de la Destrucción

      Japanese (kana) はかいりゅうガンドラ

      Japanese (base) 破壊竜ガンドラ

      Other names Crush D. Gandra
    • Gandalof wrote:

      SP1 - Warrior:
      i would just change [Iron Skin] duration to 3mins and same cd as its duration, because only 30secs is a joke. and nerf range damage decrease to around 30~40% maybe? also add magic damage decease to maybe 10% or 15%.
      Agreed, I would probably nerf morale too a bit.

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP2 - Blade:
      i wouldn't change anything tbh. it's pretty good but not op, so pretty balanced in my eyes.
      True, some more hit rate would be nice though (idk why but I always seem to miss more with this card than any other)

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP3 - Crusader:
      i would change the 2 aoes it got to "around enemy in 3 cell" so pretty much the same area as the ultimate skill, reason being those skills aoe is just horrible. and this would really help this card without making it too strong.
      i would increase buff duration (and cd of course) to 4mins, not really that important but it would be nice.
      and lastly, i would nerf [Triple Charge]. it is waaay too good and i don't know to what numbers i would make it as.. but i'd probably make it a flat buff instead of progressively increasing one (just to make things simpler and consistent), and make it like 20~25% for attack increase and probably same number for crit damage decrease.
      I would also update the animations and make him hit a bit faster overall.
      I like how the triple charge works but I think an increase on the cooldown would make it more balanced.

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP4 - Berserker:
      increase [Frenzied Attack] aoe from 2 cells to 3 cells. honestly 2 is just too small.
      remove [Break Armour] wind-up animation. (basically it will instantly cast instead of standing still there for 2 hours and end up "missing" cus the target moved)
      Agreed, I don't remember the skill names right now but I would pull some more changes on berserker, I will try to write later on when I can see the skill names.

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP5 - Gladiator:
      i wouldn't change anything. if it gets buffed it will be op and not balanced, so i wouldn't touch it. i think it's ok where it is.
      I think the cooldowns are really long, I would only decrease that. (For some skills not all)

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP6 - Monk:
      all sp6 cards have a really interesting fun and unique play styles, they are without a doubt the best designed sps in terms of gameplay. the only issue with them is they are too op. a simple fix for that is small decrease in numbers overall (buffs and skills damage). so just that. (this will be a re-occurring theme). no need talk about a specific skill, just small decrease in all or most skills would bring it in-line.
      I am not sure with monk, it feels like if they do any sort of a nerf with him might actually be unusable or we will have better options to use instead of him. (not necessarily a bad thing I guess)
      Overall though I like how monk works currently.

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP7 - Death Reaper:
      well i never actually played it so i can't say much.
      Throw it to the trash bin, complete remake. There is literally nothing to keep from this you can't really fix something that's completely broken.

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP 8 - Renegade:
      i think it's fine the way it is. having 2 elements is pretty cool feature. but yeah, i don't think it's op or anything.
      Agreed, and in fair pvps no one ever changes fairy. In frozen crown any decent player has overall resistances and proper shell set up so I never saw this as an issue, especially since the second dark SP is horrible.
      As for arena wars and emo fights, whatever. Nobody cares.

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP1 - Ranger:
      i would make [Hawk Eye] a self-buff only. honestly i don't understand why they made it possible to give to others, it makes too strong on specific cards (looking at you scout) and i don't think that's needed.
      i would also make [Triple Arrows] aoe to around enemy in 3 cells. just to make it more consistent and actually useful.
      Considering I want to nerf morale I am nerfing hawk eye too, self buff and also just to provide better hit rate but not "never miss".
      Also the other debuff that "always critical" is too broken with the current archer bows. I would though just decrease the chance to get that debuff but not change what it does.

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP2 - Assassin:
      i would give it a better invisibility. whether the old one or something else i don't care. i don't understand why it got changed in the first place tbh.
      everything else i think is fine. yes, even the new crit buff. and i think it's better actually, it emphasizes the fact that it's you know.. an ASSASSIN.. which is all about taking down their target quickly. so this new buff really makes sense. the only thing that i might wanna change is making all buffs received duration to 5 secs instead of the weird 5-3-4 secs respectively for each buff.
      I don't understand either why they changed something that worked.
      The only thing they had to do was change the bleed debuff, the "never receives a critical" was too OP in my opinion for that long duration the bleed lasted.
      Otherwise it was a perfect card.
      Side note, I also do believe the new crit buff makes more sense but whatever nobody seems to like it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP4 - Wildkeeper:
      the only thing i would do is make its buffs (wolf and bear) a self-buff only. the light res buff can stay aoe. and same as ranger's hawk eye.. i really dont understand why they made wkb aoe. this is something i very much disliked a lot.
      I would keep wolf as aoe buff just for the speed, would make bear buff self cause its actually quite annoying (nobody wants it anyway, blue pots ftw)

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP6 - Scout:
      pretty much repeat what i said for monk. really fun sp to play as, but too op. just needs some reductions in numbers and it will be fine.
      Scout is indeed fine, the problem is the arena set up that makes him annoying/op. Just some alterations around with how long it can stay hidden and should be fine.

      Gandalof wrote:

      SP8 - Avenging Angel:
      same as demon hunter, haven't really played it but with my limited interactions with it, it seemed strong but not op.
      Fun SP card and can be strong if you know what you are doing (or at least that's what archer players have claimed to me, I haven't personally played this card)


      The rest of cards I haven't personally played with them a lot so I am not too familiar with the changes and stuff. Especially with mage..
      But overall I liked the changes they did with the mage SP cards, the mana shields etc.
    • Morgoth wrote:

      Agreed, I would probably nerf morale too a bit.
      well we first need to know what it does exactly, but anyway i agree that morale needs a nerf.

      Morgoth wrote:

      True, some more hit rate would be nice though (idk why but I always seem to miss more with this card than any other)
      i actually heard this a lot but never understood why, seems like a thing one person kept repeating and people just accepted as reality without questioning it. so, here is the thing.. iirc the only swordie sp that has increased hit rate is monk (correct me if im wrong on this one). so somehow every other sp with the same exact weapon and same hitrate is fine.. but blade isn't? i played blade quite a lot and never noticed any out of the ordinary misses, of course this is just anecdotal but so is what you're saying. the only thing that could actually make blade sp specifically miss a lot is some weird bug, but if that doesn't exist.. then this doesn't make any sense and just false.

      tl;dr: im branding this as a myth until some actual evidence is shown.

      Morgoth wrote:

      I would also update the animations and make him hit a bit faster overall.
      sader animations are fine imo but sure, making them faster wouldn't hurt.

      Morgoth wrote:

      I am not sure with monk, it feels like if they do any sort of a nerf with him might actually be unusable or we will have better options to use instead of him. (not necessarily a bad thing I guess)
      Overall though I like how monk works currently.
      you really think so? you are the only person that i've seen say monk isn't op (well aside from irrational monk mains that cannot provide any rational argument against that). and i really don't think what i purposed (small damage nerfs across most of its skills) would make blade or other swordie take monk's place in anything. it will still have the things that make it great in both pvp and pve.. good healing/debuff removal, voke, lots of cc and still great dps (yes, even when nerfed a bit)

      Morgoth wrote:

      Considering I want to nerf morale I am nerfing hawk eye too, self buff and also just to provide better hit rate but not "never miss".
      i can agree with this. i dont think it will really hurt the card.

      Morgoth wrote:

      I don't understand either why they changed something that worked.
      The only thing they had to do was change the bleed debuff, the "never receives a critical" was too OP in my opinion for that long duration the bleed lasted.
      Otherwise it was a perfect card.
      oh yeah i forgot about that bleed. it was sealed deep down in my brain as a terrible memory. this bleed does way too much damage and strong effect for a skill that has pretty much no cd and high chance to inflect it.

      Morgoth wrote:

      I would keep wolf as aoe buff just for the speed, would make bear buff self cause its actually quite annoying (nobody wants it anyway, blue pots ftw)
      well, in the same way bear has a bad design for intruding on other stuff like blue pot and sader buff.. wolf is too. and i know that isn't about those skills specifically but i just wanted to mention that. it's just a poor design choice.

      but back to the buffs themselves, sure the movement speed is nice but the attack increase is way too strong. i wouldn't mind wolf being aoe if it was just speed. so for me, i would either make wolf self only or keep it aoe but move the attack buff to eagle instead. as for bear i don't think it's op but as i said it's intrusive to other effects, so either that gets fixed or simply make it self only and problem solved.

      Morgoth wrote:

      Scout is indeed fine, the problem is the arena set up that makes him annoying/op. Just some alterations around with how long it can stay hidden and should be fine.
      the issue for me isn't arena in specific for me, as i said this is for all sp6.. they just do too much damage. i don't believe nerfing the hide skill solves any of the core issues for it (which is in short: too much damage).
      English Gandora the Dragon of Destruction

      Chinese 破壞龍 鋼多拉

      French Gandora le Dragon de la Destruction

      German Gandora der Drache der Zerstörung

      Italian Gandora, il Drago della Distruzione

      Korean 파괴룡 간드라

      Portuguese Gandora o Dragão da Destruição

      Spanish Gandora el Dragón de la Destrucción

      Japanese (kana) はかいりゅうガンドラ

      Japanese (base) 破壊竜ガンドラ

      Other names Crush D. Gandra
    • Although I agree with most of your words I really wouldn't make hawk or wkb a self buff at all, because it is a great help in pve say for time gated stuff, like a6 raids. I think hawk/ sader buffs kinda ruin fair pvp but that should be fixed with preventing alt buffing on pvp areas and not by changing buff itself. Not yet a sword player, agree with archer changes and as mainly mage player I gotta say we miss decent pve dark sp, but we rewarded with 2 op pvp ones. and I think bm needs a water res reduce debuff instead of one that increases crit related stuff.

      Also you forgot ma :D curious what you would say
    • Kinishinai wrote:

      Although I agree with most of your words I really wouldn't make hawk or wkb a self buff at all, because it is a great help in pve say for time gated stuff, like a6 raids. I think hawk/ sader buffs kinda ruin fair pvp but that should be fixed with preventing alt buffing on pvp areas and not by changing buff itself.
      well i mostly had in mind pve aspect of it. i think it is way too op for pve. in pvp too, but at least both sides can get the same buff so it's even. so yeah, these buffs increase damage way too much and make everything too easy. so it's a balance choice for me to both pvp and pve.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      and I think bm needs a water res reduce debuff instead of one that increases crit related stuff.
      agree on this one strongly. it's only 1 debuff but it's really funny that a card that cant crit gets a debuff for crits.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      Also you forgot ma curious what you would say

      i didn't forget

      Gandalof wrote:

      i will only mention sps 1 to 8 of the 3 main classes, but feel free to include martial artist sps or other "fluff" sps if you wish to do so.
      i just never played ma at all nor did i play with/against other players using it, so it would be just me repeating "i didnt play this card, cant say much"

      but as i said, you can talk about it if you want. other people who have knowledge about it might wanna discuss.

      Yaouank wrote:

      Hello. I've made a couple of months ago a fun changenote on SPs, so i'll show you because this thread looks to be the place to be -> hackmd.io/s/S118RCJCN (hack MD mean Hack Markdown, witch is a text editor language.
      NO IT'S A HACKING SITE AND WILL HACK YOUR COMPUTER DON'T CLICK!!! (jk btw)

      anyway, for mage changes.. i dont understand why you want to decrease buffs duration if the cd is going to be the same. this will not be a nerf if that's what you're trying to do, it will just make it bit more annoying for the player to have to rebuff more often, so really i dont see an upside for this.


      Firestorm
      Range of attack goes from ~~2 cells ~~> 3 cells.
      yes, i 100% agree with it. i actually forgot about it. otherwise i would have included that too. and if there are any other around-self-2-cells aoes, they need to be made 3. cus really 2 is really small.

      Holy Attack (basic)
      Target: Target only > 1 cell.
      Holy Light
      Target: 1 cell > 2 cells.
      Holy Hammer (s20)
      Duration of the animation decreased by 0.7 seconds > 0.6 seconds
      Target: 2 cells> 4 cells
      disagree. holy is supposed to be a purely support sp. and it's insanely good at that. so making it better in other aspects will make it broken. it's already borderline op but the fact that you can't do everything with it on ur own keeps it fair.

      Ice chain
      Increased range of 6 cells> 8 cells.
      yes please, this skill is really annoying to use due to its short range. i actually forgot about it cus i never bother using it.


      swordman:
      Whirlwind
      The target increases by 3 cells> 4 cells.
      i think 3 cells is perfectly fine, there is no reason for this skill to be 4 cells, this should be only for ultimate skills imo.

      Cross Cutting
      Removing the effect: The probability of causing a critical hit of 30%.
      Added effect: 10% chance that damage will increase by 25%
      the idea isn't bad imo but it seems a bit harsh of a nerf. i would say increase the chance for damage increase to 40% or more and it would be fine for me. but i do still prefer crit on it just to keep with the theme of blade being about crits. even for a lower chance to crit, i still rather see that over having soft crit.. cus that really feels out of place.

      Energy Blade
      Increased range of 6 cells > 10 Cells.
      Increased recharge time 8 seconds > 14 seconds.
      would love to see more range on it for sure. i would probably make it 8 cells 12 sec cd. but i really like this change

      Chain attack
      Increased range of 1 cell> 2 cells
      sure i guess. this would be nice.

      Sword Storm
      Increased range 3 cells> 4 cell
      same reasoning as whirlwind, it's fine as 3 cells. no need to increase it.

      Attack of speed of light
      Increased range of 5 cells > 6 cells.
      All negative effects up to level 4 > 3 are removed
      for range increase, sure. it's not much and shouldn't matter.

      for removing debufs.. well, it doesnt do that. but im guessing this is just a mistake and you meant the healing skill. well anyway, im on the fence on this one. but im leaning more towards disagree (but also im bit biased towards this sp so there is that)

      Sharp edge
      Effect duration increased by 1 second> 1.2 seconds.
      Reload time increased from 120 > 180 seconds.
      Duration of the effect increased 120 > 180 seconds.
      as i've always been saying, this would be great just because it will be less annoying to rebuff. and it doesn't realistically make it any stronger or weaker. so i'm all for it.

      Dancing Sword (S20)
      The charging time increases by 120> 150 seconds
      i don't understand why you think there is a need to nerf cd by this much or at all. when monk and rene ults (which are better) have shorter cd. and sader ult which is waaaaay stronger have same cd.

      Berzerk
      The berzerk effect is reversed.
      well aside from the image being for ants (i know the effect so doesn't matter to me i guess), this is quiet interesting. well it would hurt his mobbing ability since the attack will only be in the last 20 secs. as for pvp, i think +4 speed for 60 secs is too much and making it less risky goes against my personal taste of how zerk should be. so at the end, i disagree but i do find this idea interesting.

      Adrenaline rush
      Increased range of 2 > 4.
      that would nice.


      archer:
      Tumble
      [ Tumble] effect increased by 2 seconds > 3 seconds.
      good lord.. why? why do u want this already great skill with very short cd to be even more op? if it becomes 3 secs, it needs more cd for sure.. like at least extra 5 secs if not more.

      Snake rush
      Add a [ Short Blackout] effect to 30% chance
      i mean.. this skill already got a better blackout for higher chance. i dont see why add a weaker blackout for a less chance.
      English Gandora the Dragon of Destruction

      Chinese 破壞龍 鋼多拉

      French Gandora le Dragon de la Destruction

      German Gandora der Drache der Zerstörung

      Italian Gandora, il Drago della Distruzione

      Korean 파괴룡 간드라

      Portuguese Gandora o Dragão da Destruição

      Spanish Gandora el Dragón de la Destrucción

      Japanese (kana) はかいりゅうガンドラ

      Japanese (base) 破壊竜ガンドラ

      Other names Crush D. Gandra
    • Gandalof wrote:

      i actually heard this a lot but never understood why, seems like a thing one person kept repeating and people just accepted as reality without questioning it. so, here is the thing.. iirc the only swordie sp that has increased hit rate is monk (correct me if im wrong on this one). so somehow every other sp with the same exact weapon and same hitrate is fine.. but blade isn't? i played blade quite a lot and never noticed any out of the ordinary misses, of course this is just anecdotal but so is what you're saying. the only thing that could actually make blade sp specifically miss a lot is some weird bug, but if that doesn't exist.. then this doesn't make any sense and just false.

      tl;dr: im branding this as a myth until some actual evidence is shown.
      Fair enough, and we indeed don't have something to prove this completely out of someone's experience and to be honest it could be purely unlucky moments or simply noticing it more because of this rumor of "blade misses more" everything is on the table here.

      Gandalof wrote:

      you really think so? you are the only person that i've seen say monk isn't op (well aside from irrational monk mains that cannot provide any rational argument against that). and i really don't think what i purposed (small damage nerfs across most of its skills) would make blade or other swordie take monk's place in anything. it will still have the things that make it great in both pvp and pve.. good healing/debuff removal, voke, lots of cc and still great dps (yes, even when nerfed a bit)
      I guess lowering a bit the damage only would be fine, there some users who want/say they would remove some stuns and lower the debuff chances (I mostly had those cases in mind rather than just some damage nerf)
      I remember though before monk Berserker was used to nuke people in frozen crown caligor raid so it could be one option there. (In an active server anyway)

      Kinishinai wrote:

      Although I agree with most of your words I really wouldn't make hawk or wkb a self buff at all, because it is a great help in pve say for time gated stuff, like a6 raids. I think hawk/ sader buffs kinda ruin fair pvp but that should be fixed with preventing alt buffing on pvp areas and not by changing buff itself. Not yet a sword player, agree with archer changes and as mainly mage player I gotta say we miss decent pve dark sp, but we rewarded with 2 op pvp ones. and I think bm needs a water res reduce debuff instead of one that increases crit related stuff.
      Generally I like the SP cards to be able to support themselves and I mean in simple buffs such as speed or accuracy etc, and then keep some powerful/unique buffs aoe but on specific SPs like morale for example.
      If they want to have speed they can add it in a buff the SP card has no need to search for a wild keeper to give you speed...

      And considering I am not a big fan of multiaccounts I am not going to consider having an alt lved to have WK buffs or ranger.

      Yaouank wrote:

      Hello. I've made a couple of months ago a fun changenote on SPs, so i'll show you because this thread looks to be the place to be -> hackmd.io/s/S118RCJCN (hack MD mean Hack Markdown, witch is a text editor language.
      You actually did a good job writing those, that's pretty much how any SP skill change suggestion should look like.
    • Since i got reply :

      @Gandalof Well, Buff CD lowered is just to help out in arena where you have to wait for buffs again and again before PvP. Mages are winning the most of the changes (Who never waited for the Dark Gunner's buff)

      Holy Mage : Well i was talking with some people when i was doing the changes : I asked them if they wants to see some offensives change or support changes and they choose the offensive one. TBH a heal-buffed holy would be really painfull in PvP on lower lvl ( before softcrits (88+) )

      Ninja : Cross Cutt my uk notepatch isen't up 2 date :( it's become 10% of 50% damage increase instead of 25%.).
      The remove of bad effect is from the heal, for sur

      Assassin : Tumble : Well idk, just trying stuff. then i would put it back on 100% chance getting the effect with 2 sec duration ?
      Wild Keeper : Snake Rush :
      Personally I find that the SP is a bit based on "all or nothing", it has no real possibility in PvP.
      The advantage of adding a 2nd stun on a single spell is the following: If the two spells are activated at the same time, then the addition won't make any différence, If only the big stun is activated then it is normal, and if the small is activated then it is just a slight gain (2 seconds of stun light blackout). It gives a little more opportunity to put elemental leech ....

      @Morgoth Thanks you ! :saint: :love:

      Fun fact : I've made that change list for french friends aswell (i'm for NosFR) and they almost all says that the rangers changes were too much but no one told that here... that's kinda strange.

      PS : My English is froggy as hell
    • Yaouank wrote:

      Well, Buff CD lowered is just to help out in arena where you have to wait for buffs again and again before PvP. Mages are winning the most of the changes (Who never waited for the Dark Gunner's buff)
      i don't believe it's a good idea to balance around arena at all. i would only make changes regarding pvp for fc. but that's just me.

      Yaouank wrote:

      Holy Mage : Well i was talking with some people when i was doing the changes : I asked them if they wants to see some offensives change or support changes and they choose the offensive one. TBH a heal-buffed holy would be really painfull in PvP on lower lvl ( before softcrits (88+) )
      well obviously since offensive would make it more fun to play. but if you're gonna make it more offensive without changing any of its support capabilities it will be broken as i said. i think it's already op anyway but we really don't have other heal+support options so changing it would create a void.

      Yaouank wrote:

      Assassin : Tumble : Well idk, just trying stuff. then i would put it back on 100% chance getting the effect with 2 sec duration ?
      wait so the 3sec was supposed to be at a lower chance? cus that wasn't mentioned. if that's the case, the change is not as crazy.. but i would still disagree with it because i dont like adding more luck and rng into things. that should be avoided as much as possible.

      Yaouank wrote:

      Wild Keeper : Snake Rush :
      Personally I find that the SP is a bit based on "all or nothing", it has no real possibility in PvP.
      The advantage of adding a 2nd stun on a single spell is the following: If the two spells are activated at the same time, then the addition won't make any différence, If only the big stun is activated then it is normal, and if the small is activated then it is just a slight gain (2 seconds of stun light blackout). It gives a little more opportunity to put elemental leech ....
      ok sure, that makes sense. i didn't mind it in the first place, i was just thinking it was weird.

      Yaouank wrote:

      Fun fact : I've made that change list for french friends aswell (i'm for NosFR) and they almost all says that the rangers changes were too much but no one told that here... that's kinda strange.
      well i replied to things i fully agree or disagree with. other things i didnt mention i was neutral about or on the fence. and this was one of them.
      English Gandora the Dragon of Destruction

      Chinese 破壞龍 鋼多拉

      French Gandora le Dragon de la Destruction

      German Gandora der Drache der Zerstörung

      Italian Gandora, il Drago della Distruzione

      Korean 파괴룡 간드라

      Portuguese Gandora o Dragão da Destruição

      Spanish Gandora el Dragón de la Destrucción

      Japanese (kana) はかいりゅうガンドラ

      Japanese (base) 破壊竜ガンドラ

      Other names Crush D. Gandra
    • Finally, this card can use some upgrades, it didnt received any reqork hence 2007 , so it will be a little op but that's life.

      Pillow hitting -> Double the dmg.
      Add [Blackout] effect with a chance to trigger by 120%.
      Add crit rate by 69%, also reducing the armor of the target by 70%.
      Incr Fire element by 12000.
      Incr Water element by 12000.
      Incr Light ele by 12000.
      Incr Dark ele by 12000.
      Now i know what you are thinking ! A bit overthetop,
      But don't worry about that i got the solution !
      Incr CD by 02 seconds.
      Next.
      Play dead.
      User becomes untargetable while playing dead,this effect can last up to a maximum of 120 seconds.
      If the user wakes up the effect is transfered to the enemy for 60 seconds , the enemy however does not benefit of invincibility but rather just remains dead.
      Dw about balance, i got this ! CD 125 seconds.
      Next
      Sleeping.
      The user body remains immobile and asleep in this time a magical chaotic barrier comes and offers him protection by reducing 99.9% incoming dmg from every direction.
      While asleep, a projection of the players pajama will appear on the field and will start hitting nearby opponents with an enchanced pillow hitting buff which incr the attack speed by 250%.
      The whole thing last only 30 seconnds but it has a 60 second CD a range of 15 cell.
      The player can wake anytime it disers cancels all the above effects.
      Next.
      Tea Time.
      The user spills tea on the ground of 25 cell range having a chance to produce a slow that last the time of the spell 1 hour and 25 minutes, CD being 1 hour and 30 minutes.
      Beware once the spell is activated you are not able to cancel it mid-process unless atleast 10 players gets caught by the spell.
      Next.
      Exercise.
      The User gest a buff.
      Incr Remote attack/Melee attack/Magic attack by 7square2.
      The user receives a speed buff by 36.
      Pillow hitting becomes a melee/remote and magic attack all at once, also attack range increases by 75.
      Obviously there will be something that will downplay this ability to not be that op.
      The whole buff is only 20 seconds , the CD is 60 seconds.
      You are welcome Entwell.
      Next.
      Lie flat.
      The user produces an earthquake once it activates this ability reducing the hp of all targetable things by 99% but it DOSEN'T KILL !
      The attack will ignore any kind of protection buff, looking at ya ninjas and assasins.
      The duration will be 0.1 sec and the CD will be 0.1 sec x 10 to make it fair.
      Next.
      Play tambourine.
      Now obviously we need something to balance this card a bit.
      Playing tambourine itst a self inflict ability,reducing the hp slowly as the player becomes bored of lack of competition.
      This could be use as a strategy for when the player is low hp enough , the enemy will approach so the pajama can use the combo tea time/lie flat and pillow hitting, to end the suffering of the poor monk/war peasent.
      Forgive me.
      Contrary to what the name suggests this spell show no mercy, it can bassicaly go 2 ways , either cancel the enemy sp transformation or clear all of his buffs.
      The CD is a bit higher of 40 sec, the ability being instant.
      Next.
      Lean on you.
      This one gest tricky , the pajama will come to cuddle near you peacefully, the enemy will start getting hypnotize by the user sorcery and will enter a quick dormant state for around 2 minutes,in this whole time all of the eqp the enemy was wearing at that time will magicaly appear in the user pocket.
      Bored.
      The user becomes bored of lack of any whorty enemy and therefore summon a huge spell that disconnects any player in the map the user is,even GM's.
      Can be used to prevent Gm's to keep hosting event raids or just having a good time in general.

      Thats all folks !
      Tell me what do you think !
      Serios replys only !
      ~All the things she said ~
      ~All the things she said~
      ~Running through my head~
      ~Running through my head~
    • Finally a decent post in some time (getting out of the shadows for a bit).
      Since I've only had a short experience with the other classes (MA, Swordy, Archer), I'll give my personal opinions on the mage sps in my noobish experience.

      First sp the "Red Mage".
      Let's get the elephant out of the room, Why does it have insane mp cost for being the first sp? The base mp for a mage around those levels (36-45) is around 1.5-2.5k having to waste money on so much chocolate bars is quite down putting. The mp consumption issues can be targeted down to is likelyhood to get skills canceled due to low concentration, maybe adding a buff like the volcano can solve most of the problems. Another good thing is adding more base speed, a new player won't have a mount until he's around 60-70 so having more speed comes like a god send from having to travel on foot so much in the first acts.

      Fire burst, the first skill is quite decent, nice range and power. The only changes I'll add is the aoe, from 2 to 3 for more mobbing prowess.
      Fire breath is quite nice too, the debuff is good ad not that much mp consumption.
      Mana transfusion is a nice shield, the only thing I'll give it would be a concentration side-buff like the Volcano buff (ya' know how awful it's to have the last being cancelled when you're low level?).
      Fire storm could use some more areas like they've said, from 2 to 3. The mana is high too, would lower it from 230 to 150.
      Fire lance is another good skill, only thing I would change is the cooldown from 25 secs to around 15-20.
      Fire blessing only changes I'll apply is the mana consumption from 570 too 250-300.
      Fire wall another decent skill, mana consumption from 340 to 200-250 and cd changes only 45 secs to 30-35.
      Meteor shower need some rework with its cd, 50 secs is too long for a skill maybe changing to 35-40 secs and giving the debuff more % from its 40% to 60%
      Inferno is another great skill, maybe diminishing the mp consumption to 250/300.
      Meteor Strike is a nice last for the first sp, the debuff is nice but the casting time is high. Like I've mentioned before getting it canceled and having to waste another 450mp can be the difference from getting destroyed.

      The walking aid-kit, "Holy".
      I personally wouldn't change much, it does its job quite nicely.

      The odd box out, "Blue mage".
      I like the concept of the shield, it's quite fitting for the sp lore (that protection spell the 3 cast end of the mission makes it seem like a longer lasting Frozen Shield).
      Ice chain need more range from its 6 to 10-12, would counterpart it with less buff chance maybe from the 70% to a 50-60%.
      The Frozen Shield seems like a cool concept, would maybe give it a side effect like being rooted to where you cast it (since you know, get frozen in place or has any1 played Overwatch, Mai is a great example of this concept).
      Glacer would change its cd from 40 to 30-35, and give it water resistance debuff (dunno why it's more when our attacks never miss).
      Heavy hail has the same problem, cd is too high. Changing it from 65 secs to 45-50 would be good.
      Intense cold has nice areas/range but crippling cd, a change from 80 secs to 60-65. The debuff I'll leave it as it is (Going with a wk to 5.2 is a nice combo for this skill).
      Blizzard is a great last, would give it a side debuff like a bleeding only basing it in hypothermia.

      It's not a phase mom, "The Dark Gunner".
      Don't got much to talk about this card, never played it that much and I don't like it in my personal opinion. (Don't even have it with me, so I can't talk much about the skills). The only bad thing I've heard it's about the mana shield side buff giving it high critical damage, so nerfing that would be balanced in my opinion.

      I'll like to add in this intermediate space between the first 4 sps and the last 4, that a artwork change is needed. If you look at the first sps is quite jarring having to look at a character with almost twice the head size of the last 4 sps.

      Wannabe meat-shield "Volcano".
      Don't have any problems with this card, a nice balance between pvp/pve.
      Magma Plating side buff need a rework, the concept is nice and all but having to wait another 32 seconds is bad. Maybe giving the buff more duration and having the "Defence against critical damage" and "All defence powers increased" be lower is a nice counterpart for the skill.

      All terrian "Tide lord".
      Another great sp card, OP for a lot of things but nerfed in some areas.
      Tweaking the base damage would be great for the sp, it's really good for both pvp/pve but doesn't shine in any of the 2 (more a jack of all trades, but master of none).
      Why does it have 2 lasts?
      The Lightning storm is a bad skill, damage and cooldown is lower that the last (I get that 15% chance is low, but the removal of the skill is better in my opinion). Maybe having the side buff removed (mp leech) and giving it a 5% is more balanced in my opinion.
      Water Bubble is a nice mana shield, the down side it's the "disappear with damage thing", (Having to unmount while luring gk is bad, and going without mana shield for a mage is a death sentence).

      Creepy homeless guy "The Seer".
      Why is a sp card base around debuffs has low level debuffs? That has bugged me for a while now. Another bad part is that in higher levels, the hp/mp chipping skills lose their purpose maybe giving them more * for the caster's level would be good.
      Confusión change its "Negative Magic Effect" from 2 to 4-5.
      Death Cage, more aoe from 2 to 3.
      Same for Cursed Hands more aoe.
      Ilusion is an awesome skill for those groovy beach costume users, but the blue circles ruin the fun. The blue circles are bugged in my experience, even when I target them the right way it misses (even tried in stationary enemies) removing that is the only change I'll add.
      Mana extract is a bad skill, doesn't remove much mp. Would increase the mp loss by adding more cd to the skill.
      The same points from "Ilusion" goes for Time Loss.

      Goody 2 shoes "The ArchMage".
      Another great sp, but hold back by the absurd cd in some skills.
      Mass teleport, I really love the concept of the skill but it has far more potential. I would rework it around being able to tp in the point we mark in the minimap by clicking where we want to go, instead of having to travel to where we want to teleport. The mp consumption could be base around the distance we travel. We can already map where we want to go my pressing, why not add this to the tp?
      I know some will say that it has OP-ness in FC but adding a 10 second period in which it takes you to where you want to go is a nice counterpart.
      (Hope I make sense, English isn't my first language and I'm doing my best to explain myself xd)
      Meteor Storm need less dc, from the 300 secs to 200-250.
      Illumination is a really great last for the concept of being the "Light of god", but not even Erenia would punish someone with a 10 minute cd, 5 minutes is acceptable in my books, but 10? That's insane.

      Welp, that's my personal take in the sp balancing stuff. I've played the Martial Artist for a bit and love the whole concept of the class, but in my opinion it need some serious rework before it gets playable. The class isn't finished so once it's ready I'll give my personal opinion on the changes it needs.

      (I've never made a post in the forum, so if I break a rule just tell me and I'll edit the post).
    • Svante wrote:

      Another good thing is adding more base speed, a new player won't have a mount until he's around 60-70 so having more speed comes like a god send from having to travel on foot so much in the first acts.
      well here's the thing, mage has the lowest hp and speed for a reason.. and that is range. they got the longest range overall, so being slow is a fair trade-off imo. also, i don't think balance changes should be done for a very specific scenario, but the overall picture.

      Svante wrote:

      Fire burst, the first skill is quite decent, nice range and power. The only changes I'll add is the aoe, from 2 to 3 for more mobbing prowess.
      that would be too much imo. it's currently 1 cell btw, and changing it to 2 would be fine.

      Svante wrote:

      Meteor Strike is a nice last for the first sp, the debuff is nice but the casting time is high. Like I've mentioned before getting it canceled and having to waste another 450mp can be the difference from getting destroyed.
      and i think that is a fair drawback for a really long range skill with massive aoe and high chance for a strong debuff. only thing i would do is change mp consumption just like every other skill, but other than that.. i see it as 100% fair.

      Svante wrote:

      The Frozen Shield seems like a cool concept, would maybe give it a side effect like being rooted to where you cast it (since you know, get frozen in place or has any1 played Overwatch, Mai is a great example of this concept).
      uhh.. i mean.. you pretty much get rooted while casting any skill, how long varies from one skill to another. i haven't played OW so i might be missing what you're trying to say. but yeah, you do get rooted briefly while using the shield.

      Svante wrote:

      Glacer would change its cd from 40 to 30-35, and give it water resistance debuff (dunno why it's more when our attacks never miss).
      well morale isn't only about hitting or missing but yeah i agree, water res debuff in this and other skills would be nice.

      Svante wrote:

      Heavy hail has the same problem, cd is too high. Changing it from 65 secs to 45-50 would be good.
      this is only cd reduction for a skill that you mentioned (for rm and bm) that i agree with. all other skills have a good cd and doesn't need a change imo.. except this one. i really think 65 is a bit much, and 45~50 sounds good.

      Svante wrote:

      Blizzard is a great last, would give it a side debuff like a bleeding only basing it in hypothermia.
      i would like to see that on other skills too

      Svante wrote:

      "The ArchMage".
      Another great sp, but hold back by the absurd cd in some skills.
      i would've never thought i'd ever see "archmage" and "held back by cd" in the same sentence. i know you're talking about the last 2 skills, but to say that the sp with the most spam-able skills ever out of every other sp in existence due to their very short cds.. is "held back" by long cds.. that is simply not true.

      Svante wrote:

      Mass teleport, I really love the concept of the skill but it has far more potential. I would rework it around being able to tp in the point we mark in the minimap by clicking where we want to go, instead of having to travel to where we want to teleport. The mp consumption could be base around the distance we travel. We can already map where we want to go my pressing, why not add this to the tp?
      I know some will say that it has OP-ness in FC but adding a 10 second period in which it takes you to where you want to go is a nice counterpart.
      that's an interesting idea. i would also add to that the ability to click on somewhere on your screen too (like how scout invs works).

      Svante wrote:

      Meteor Storm need less dc, from the 300 secs to 200-250.
      hmm, sure i guess. but what i would like to see more is a rework for it, i just don't like how unreliable it is. i would love if we could draw the path for the skill ourselves, and you would only be able to put 1 meteor on the same spot to avoid it being too op.

      Svante wrote:

      Illumination is a really great last for the concept of being the "Light of god", but not even Erenia would punish someone with a 10 minute cd, 5 minutes is acceptable in my books, but 10? That's insane.
      i really think 10mins is fair for a skill that brings you back to full hp. and remember there are many ways to reduce cd, so if it becomes 5mins and the person has good cdr it will come back way too often and be op, even without any cdr i think 5mins is too fast for it.
      English Gandora the Dragon of Destruction

      Chinese 破壞龍 鋼多拉

      French Gandora le Dragon de la Destruction

      German Gandora der Drache der Zerstörung

      Italian Gandora, il Drago della Distruzione

      Korean 파괴룡 간드라

      Portuguese Gandora o Dragão da Destruição

      Spanish Gandora el Dragón de la Destrucción

      Japanese (kana) はかいりゅうガンドラ

      Japanese (base) 破壊竜ガンドラ

      Other names Crush D. Gandra
    • Yall write too much but let's see. Not saying or supporting alt use but no one can deny game is alt based. you can all say ' but you can do whatever you want without buff, yes it's harder but you can do it' well ye, but no. why would I waste twice the time on boring grind that is just lure and kill (and try not to die or you prob take 3x the time) for hours without end. Same thing why I use exp pots boa and tarot for exp, the faster I can go the better and if it takes too much then I demotivate. So although in a perfect world all sps would pack a kit of buffs, they don't, and if they would, more ppl would complain cause 'too op'. now you go try to mob without certain buffs, all of a sudden you'd see same as pvp now: ppl are one trick ponies and only play one sp because that sp has the buffs/ skills they need. Basicaly what I already do with Archmage because it is by far the easiest sp in the game to mob with (even above wk since am skills are very spammable) kit it with more buffs and I won't play anything else because there would just be no reason to

      Aside from that, how exactly is a mage lvl 88 supposed to do a6 without buffs? Suppsoed to lvl more before trying? then why does a6 unlock at lvl 88. first levels are faster and dying doesn't cost as much time? the first c lvl equiment, aside from accessories which are not that big of improvement, is at c25, without alts to buff that takes an eternity to get.

      if I wanna play nostale on hard mode then I do so and drop my alts. But I don't believe there's a need to balance sps to make pve harder. aren't we playing for fun? isn't this game for younger ages?
    • Kinishinai wrote:

      Yall write too much but let's see. Not saying or supporting alt use but no one can deny game is alt based. you can all say ' but you can do whatever you want without buff, yes it's harder but you can do it' well ye, but no. why would I waste twice the time on boring grind that is just lure and kill (and try not to die or you prob take 3x the time) for hours without end.
      Just to clear the confusion and apologies for the side off-topic.
      What I said on that part was I want the SP cards to be self-supporting and not to need an alt-buff army to have certain buffs.
      In short aside from the unique buffs such as morale and whatever else the simple ones such as speed/some basic hit rate/small attack boosts can be added to a buff skill in every SP card in every class and not need to have an alt army to have those.

      So when we talk about SP balance/changes we can't really think like "oh you know what people have alts just have WK give speed aoe buff, then have gladiatior give attack aoe buff, have warrior give morale, have dark gunner give elemental buff" etc etc. (If we are to make some buffs self-based of course we will be buffing the buffs in other SP cards to cover the gap)
      As I said I want them to be more self-supporting and less RNG involved, that would make PvP and PvE far more fair and enjoying in my opinion.
      I hope it clears up how I meant it above.
    • @Kinishinai who are you replying to exactly? im a bit confused here. if it's for making wkb and hawk eye self only, then i don't really think that'll hurt anyone's ability to mob. morale, hb, sader buffs, atk pot, fairy boost, ice flower oil.. are more than enough. and that's not even all possible buffs. so in the grand scheme of things, losing wkb will not make that much difference.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      if I wanna play nostale on hard mode then I do so and drop my alts. But I don't believe there's a need to balance sps to make pve harder. aren't we playing for fun? isn't this game for younger ages?
      i think it's clear that the game took the route of being much harder and bit more hardcore since the introduction of act 4. but regardless, balancing sps isn't about making pve harder, it's about.. you know.. making sps more balanced. meaning that every sp would be good at something rather than some sps being way too good, and others being utterly useless. of course we can't make every sp perfectly balanced as all things should be, but we should try to get as close to that point as possible.

      and if sp balancing would cause issues in pve like being too hard or too easy, then simply monsters stats could be adjusted too.



      edit:

      Morgoth wrote:

      What I said on that part was I want the SP cards to be self-supporting and not to need an alt-buff army to have certain buffs.
      In short aside from the unique buffs such as morale and whatever else the simple ones such as speed/some basic hit rate/small attack boosts can be added to a buff skill in every SP card in every class and not need to have an alt army to have those.
      sounds great and all but the only issue with that is that it would nullify sps having certain roles. if every sp is capable of "self-supporting" as you mentioned, meaning that they would have everything (tanking, support, dps, aoes) that would certainly make things more imbalanced. and if you're gonna say that's not what you mean and not every sp will have everything, then they aren't really self-reliant (or self-supporting as you call it).

      Morgoth wrote:

      So when we talk about SP balance/changes we can't really think like "oh you know what people have alts just have WK give speed aoe buff, then have gladiatior give attack aoe buff, have warrior give morale, have dark gunner give elemental buff" etc etc.
      we can and we have to. multi clients are officially supported now, so it's not crazy to consider alts in terms of balance. but let's assume that alts were not allowed, it would be the same pretty much. raids have 15 slots so you could get any group buffs you want, same thing in fc pvp.. you can potentially have every buff without any alts. so if there is a group buff that is too strong, it would still need a nerf regardless of alts being allowed or not.
      English Gandora the Dragon of Destruction

      Chinese 破壞龍 鋼多拉

      French Gandora le Dragon de la Destruction

      German Gandora der Drache der Zerstörung

      Italian Gandora, il Drago della Distruzione

      Korean 파괴룡 간드라

      Portuguese Gandora o Dragão da Destruição

      Spanish Gandora el Dragón de la Destrucción

      Japanese (kana) はかいりゅうガンドラ

      Japanese (base) 破壊竜ガンドラ

      Other names Crush D. Gandra

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Gandalof ().

    • @Gandalof Was part in reply to you, why hawk and wolf specificaly. in pvp I get it in pve terms it would make no sense to make it self buff, cause then would be logical to make other buffs also only self. there is simply no reason to make that change. Even more, leave light res? what's the logic there? because it's not as useful/ doesn't have as much impact? is that really a reason to nerf something? what even makes bear buff different from sader hp buff

      Morgoth wrote:

      Just to clear the confusion and apologies for the side off-topic.What I said on that part was I want the SP cards to be self-supporting and not to need an alt-buff army to have certain buffs.
      In short aside from the unique buffs such as morale and whatever else the simple ones such as speed/some basic hit rate/small attack boosts can be added to a buff skill in every SP card in every class and not need to have an alt army to have those.

      So when we talk about SP balance/changes we can't really think like "oh you know what people have alts just have WK give speed aoe buff, then have gladiatior give attack aoe buff, have warrior give morale, have dark gunner give elemental buff" etc etc. (If we are to make some buffs self-based of course we will be buffing the buffs in other SP cards to cover the gap)
      As I said I want them to be more self-supporting and less RNG involved, that would make PvP and PvE far more fair and enjoying in my opinion.
      I hope it clears up how I meant it above.
      yes I understand that, but like I said if you get an sp with all the buffs you would use just so you can cancel alt usage, first would be busted, second as long as there are aoe buffs they will be used, and if wkb morale and etc is not needed anymore then in their place we gonna get other buffs, as long as there are aoe buffs. just no way around alts, that kinda change would have been good before they supported and facilitated alt usage. would be less troublesome than logging idk how many clients so my a6 mobbing isn't a complete struggle
    • Kinishinai wrote:

      @Gandalof Was part in reply to you, why hawk and wolf specificaly.
      because these 2 buffs are too strong to be given to other people imo. also, those are dps sps not support sps.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      in pvp I get it in pve terms it would make no sense to make it self buff, cause then would be logical to make other buffs also only self.
      ok let me flip that around, why not make every other buff a group buff too then? i would love to see what it looks like to have blade, scout, destroyer, rene, monk and the other dg buff all be group buffs too. according to you, it only makes sense right?

      Kinishinai wrote:

      Even more, leave light res? what's the logic there? because it's not as useful/ doesn't have as much impact? is that really a reason to nerf something?
      pretty much yes. the effect is not op any way so i don't see why it needs to change. but with that being said, i personally wouldn't mind the light res buff being either group or self. but once again, this buff doesn't make any other person suddenly op so.. for me, i wouldn't change it.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      what even makes bear buff different from sader hp buff
      i was thinking of going all snarky on you and point out the obvious differences but i decided against that. anyway, i've already explained why i want this to be self only. the reason is because it overrides other buffs (which is a god awful game design choice).

      and this change would be actually be a "buff" if you will. i mean, not really because the wk player can chose not to use it.. but in reality not matter how many times you should "DONT BEAR" there will be that one person who always does anyway. but i digress. point is, i think this change specifically will actually be better for everyone.
      English Gandora the Dragon of Destruction

      Chinese 破壞龍 鋼多拉

      French Gandora le Dragon de la Destruction

      German Gandora der Drache der Zerstörung

      Italian Gandora, il Drago della Distruzione

      Korean 파괴룡 간드라

      Portuguese Gandora o Dragão da Destruição

      Spanish Gandora el Dragón de la Destrucción

      Japanese (kana) はかいりゅうガンドラ

      Japanese (base) 破壊竜ガンドラ

      Other names Crush D. Gandra
    • Gandalof wrote:

      because these 2 buffs are too strong to be given to other people imo. also, those are dps sps not support sps.
      I agree they are strong, but our support sp only gives lvl x2 attack and no speed. Upgrade my speed and buff hb and sure go make your wkb self only. Also you do realize sader is a quite decent dps right? but you still accept its buffs. and you contradicting yourself, if wk shouldn't be aoe buff cause it is dps then take light res out too



      Gandalof wrote:

      ok let me flip that around, why not make every other buff a group buff too then? i would love to see what it looks like to have blade, scout, destroyer, rene, monk and the other dg buff all be group buffs too. according to you, it only makes sense right?
      Not counting self shield buffs, because that's their shield and would be busted to stack shields. but I wouldn't mind having more buffs, got plenty alts to use them, and I would. Make them all aoe and make a buff number limit so that we actualy chose, I'm in


      Gandalof wrote:

      i was thinking of going all snarky on you and point out the obvious differences but i decided against that. anyway, i've already explained why i want this to be self only. the reason is because it overrides other buffs (which is a god awful game design choice).
      Neither of us is stupid, I know the difference. Both can be dps, both can be turned to support buffersone gives 30% hp mana the other gives 1 lvl def and 15(?)% hp and mana, it's essentialy same thing. bear has limit of 5k sader doesn't so for higher lvl sader is actualy better.

      And that thing, bear overbuffing sader buff, that's not the players fault that the game has that bad mechanic so why would you take bear away jsut so it doesn't bother you when you want sader buff. why not jsut fix that issue in game
    • Kinishinai wrote:

      I agree they are strong, but our support sp only gives lvl x2 attack and no speed. Upgrade my speed and buff hb and sure go make your wkb self only.
      well then hb would be broken and needs a nerf, so we're back to square one. and just to make things clear, for me the issue isn't about speed, i said it before.. i would be fine if the attack from wolf went to eagle, then wolf being group buff would be fine for me.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      Also you do realize sader is a quite decent dps right? but you still accept its buffs.
      it's really not. it's actually pretty abysmal. in terms of aoe damage, only the ult has good damage and covers a big area.. but since it's an ult it got long cd. the other 2 aoe skills have low damage a really bad target area, so against a big mob.. sader is useless by itself. as for single target dps, it's not that good either. yes it can do some damage with triple charge but that's because that buff is too op that it makes a bad dps into a decent one, point is, there is always a better sp to give triple charge to over the sader using it on himself.

      i know i just wrote all of that which makes what im going to write now a bit weird but whatever. anyway, i can agree that saying "this is dps card, it shouldnt have group buffs" is a bad argument, so i take it back. the problem i have is with the buff itself and what card using it doesn't matter to me.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      and you contradicting yourself, if wk shouldn't be aoe buff cause it is dps then take light res out too
      well, not really a contradiction. i said that im fine with either one.

      Gandalof wrote:

      i personally wouldn't mind the light res buff being either group or self.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      Not counting self shield buffs, because that's their shield and would be busted to stack shields. but I wouldn't mind having more buffs, got plenty alts to use them, and I would.
      ok so i guess cant have the other dg buff cus it's a mana shield too, but let me list the buffs i mentioned:
      blade: atk lvl +2, crit chance +20%, long range dodge (lvl*3)
      monk: meh, cant bother listing it all. but u know that its op.
      rene: short and long range atk (lvl*2), atk in pvp (lvl/10) (percentage), light and dark ele.
      destroyer: 15% chance to reduce 90% of all damage, pvp atk +15%
      scout: crit chance and damage (lvl/10) (percentage), attack range +4 (there are other stuff there too but i decided to focus on the most important ones)

      so you're telling me having all that is not busted too? oh and i know i didn't mention it initially but let's add eagle to that list too for another 10% crit chance.

      Kinishinai wrote:

      Make them all aoe and make a buff number limit so that we actualy chose, I'm in
      well that is a viable way to balance buffs. but i see some issues with it, either the limit will be too high (let's say 10 for example) and basically nothing is changed. or the limit is too low (let's say 3) and it will actually be much worse than just wolf being self buff.

      ok then you're gonna say just take a number that isn't too high or low right? well how are you gonna judge what's the best number is? remember that in some sps have a skill that gives 3 different buffs for example, and there are some buffs that is short so you wait to use them on the right time for example. it will be really messy if those wont activate because of this.

      oh, and if u get buffed more than the limit.. which buffs does the game chose?

      Kinishinai wrote:

      And that thing, bear overbuffing sader buff, that's not the players fault that the game has that bad mechanic so why would you take bear away jsut so it doesn't bother you when you want sader buff. why not jsut fix that issue in game
      and a simple way to fix that is making bear buff self only. because if it doesn't overbuff sader and blue pot.. that means they will stack in effect, which will be too much.

      also one thing i don't understand is why you're against this so much.. like for wolf i can understand why. but in this case it's just better for everyone. for example, blue pot at high lvls gives more because there is no max limit to it.. and it's 10mins.. and you can refresh it at any time (so u can before it ends) so u retain your hp.

      this is honestly more of a QoL change rather than a balance one.
      English Gandora the Dragon of Destruction

      Chinese 破壞龍 鋼多拉

      French Gandora le Dragon de la Destruction

      German Gandora der Drache der Zerstörung

      Italian Gandora, il Drago della Distruzione

      Korean 파괴룡 간드라

      Portuguese Gandora o Dragão da Destruição

      Spanish Gandora el Dragón de la Destrucción

      Japanese (kana) はかいりゅうガンドラ

      Japanese (base) 破壊竜ガンドラ

      Other names Crush D. Gandra
    • Gandalof wrote:

      well then hb would be broken and needs a nerf, so we're back to square one. and just to make things clear, for me the issue isn't about speed, i said it before.. i would be fine if the attack from wolf went to eagle, then wolf being group buff would be fine for me
      it wouldn't be broken, it's a support sp, supposed to support. atm gives some att some def and that's it, to the point I can put other buffs over it. give me more att on hb, to at least make up for wolf and throw wk's attack on eagle buff, could live with that

      Gandalof wrote:

      it's really not. it's actually pretty abysmal. in terms of aoe damage, only the ult has good damage and covers a big area.. but since it's an ult it got long cd. the other 2 aoe skills have low damage a really bad target area, so against a big mob.. sader is useless by itself. as for single target dps, it's not that good either. yes it can do some damage with triple charge but that's because that buff is too op that it makes a bad dps into a decent one, point is, there is always a better sp to give triple charge to over the sader using it on himself.
      you're thinking pve is all about mobbing and hitting aoes, you're quite wrong, sader is very viable in raids, and if you think it got little damage then you had some bad xbow or you skilled your sp quite wrongly

      Gandalof wrote:

      well, not really a contradiction. i said that im fine with either one.
      You said wk is dps and not support so shouldn't aoe buff, then you say light res is fine. in my eyes you're jsut against the attack wolf gives and I don't understand exactly why you'd want to nerf pve in nostale



      Kudos for going to check all those buffs and so if you can imagine what having all those buffs would be, we both can agree that would be busted, even with a buff number limit you could get quite op, so making those buffs self only and making more general buffs aoe would balance it out no? Because not every sp has hit rate concentration dodge attack speed defence, so the point of aoe buffs is to complement your sp no? So the fact that you can't stack all those buffs already makes it balanced no?



      Gandalof wrote:

      also one thing i don't understand is why you're against this so much..
      Against? no, weren't you aiming for a discussion on balance? so we debating, I'm trying to understand why you'd want that, the buffs you use big majority are sp 1-4, game is what,10 years old? been same until now so why would you want to change it, where did the problem pop from, I could argue with new ma sp being just buff slave, and being the only new sp in years to really affect alt buffing, but you didn't even touch them