SP Balancing - Feedback required

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  • SP Balancing - Feedback required

    Hello Nos-players!

    It's about time, don't you think? We are actively looking for feedback from your side regarding specialist balancing. To make it clear: The feedback will definitely be forwarded to Entwell this time - but there will be tons of feedbacks from different communities, so we do not know what exactly will be changed in the end (if anything) and when.
    As usual if you have to discuss something please keep it on a normal level :beer:

    Ready.... Set .... Go! *runs*

    sexier than Bittersweet
    piss me off and I’ll make the Death Star explosion look like a fire cracker

  • Blue mage: it is useless in pvp and week in pve because of being the only mage sp without mana shield. Having aoe basic attack is really op but if you get some lag or you are using and skill and you cant dodge a group of mobs in act 5.2 while you are luring, you will die 90%. However, with tide lord you can go to the wc and come back and still alive.

    Red mage: The actual metagame made fire sps totally unnecessary in pve and volcano is 10 times better than rm in terms of pvp or fc. That's because lot of things... But the biggest problem in rm is the low stats of dmg of its skills. If you compare bm dmg/energies and rm you will understand me.

    - Blue Mage: Add mana shield.
    - Red Mage: Increase all skill stats in terms of dmg/energies.

    Pd: destroyer, 7sp swordman, 8sp archer need a rework too.
    The main difference between PvE and PvP player is that the first one fights vs himself to achieve his best version of himself while the second one just wanna be better than others.
  • Ok, let's start with not bashing the annoying scouts.
    Yes, they are annoying, one shotting almost everyone, etc., but I don't think the reason for that is that they are overpowered.
    It is more that scout players specialize on that one aspect, they have weapons and shells specially for reducing enemies deff and water ressistance, the scout is often their only good SP, they are full buffed,...
    A scout is in general not stronger than any other SP.
    Ok, now I should run, too, I think.

    But before running, let me say just one thing:
    I really enjoy PvE and don't care that much about PvP (might be one reason why I don't mind scouts that much). Here, it is sometimes really annoying that enemies simply don't get debuffs.
    It is completely ok if some enemies shouldn't get debuffs all the time, if they have a chance to avoid certain effects with a certain probability, but the fact that only the zerk and the gunner can even touch most high level enemies with their debuffs is really annoying.
    I would prefer equal chances here, like giving monster a chance of XX% to avoid all debuffs, or giving every SP at least one high level debuff.
    This might in fact also make low level SPs more interesting. As an example, let's consider the red mage. He is slow, his skills are slow, his cooldowns are high, he is almost not used anymore once you get a vulcano. By giving him a few high level (lv5 or 6 or whatever is needed to debuff high enemies) debuffs might make him more interesting to play.
    Overall, overworking the debuffs and debuff avoidance might give a lot of currently useless SPs a new reason to exist, both in PvE and in PvP (maybe the "blocks all debuffs" shell-effect could be changed to "blocks all debuffs below lv4"?).
    And as a last point, also about debuffs, let's look at the blue mage. His ice shield is really interesting in theory. He has no mana shield, so he gets more damage, but if he uses his shield correctly, he can block a lot of it; or that's at least the theory. In practice, all debuffs melt through that shield. In PvP when using the shield, you might not get dmg, but you still get stun or bleed and are just as dead (in fact, taking that dmg with a manashield instead of blocking it and then taking lots of dmg afterwards without a shield, you might actually survive...) In PvE, it's the same thing. If you want to use the ice shield to block and freeze a big group of mobs, you still get into trouble because all their debuffs hit you. Maybe letting the ice shield block all debuffs is too strong, but at least it should get a certain chance to block debuffs.

    So overall, I suggest to rework the whole buff/debuff system, changing how a player or a monster can block debuffs and making currently useless SPs more interesting by giving them useful debuffs (e.g. that are able to hit raidbosses).
    I know that just giving everyone strong debuffs is most likely not the solution, there will surely be a lot to think about here. If someone high enough to have influence feels this is a topic worth discussing and considering, I would happily help with working out a more detailed proposal how to rework the system.
  • I agree that ice shield on blue mage should be changed, though personally i don't want it to be mana shield. I just want it to fully block things the way blade and assassin get their charges.

    I get that before now it didn't do this and instead had you take 1 damage so it could apply a 'when you are hit' debuff to enemies like what you find on some armors. If they could find a way to still apply the stun, while letting the shield remove ALL damage though that'd be great.(1 damage from 50+ enemies is still 50+ damage.... Plus all debuffs which many are damage over time anyway)
  • Morgoth wrote:

    Overall as a side note try to keep in mind that an SP doesn't have to be OP in both pvp and pve in theory the pvp SPs currently are the "new" ones (SP5-8) and the pve SPs are the "old" ones (SP1-4).
    Looking at mage, SP5 is a lot better in PvE than SP1, SP8 is a lot better than SP2 (well, ok, take one or two holys for the heal and buff in raids maybe, but that's about it) and SP7 is better than SP4 because most people have a really strong staff either way, so they can be strong with SP7 without having to invest into a high level high rare spellgun. Oh, and either way I think the dark gunner is more of a PvP-SP, isn't he?

    Looking at swordi, SP6 is a lot stronger in PvE than SP2 (unless you happen to have a fake sword) and SP8 is stronger than SP3, which is only a buff-/triple-slave.

    For archer your distinction might actually be more or less true, however, archer has the problem that in PvE you almost only use SP4 and in PvP almost only SP6, so that is also not perfect.

    I totally agree that we can have some SPs good for PvE and bad for PvP and the other way round, but the fact that you see almost only SP5 in Glace for example shows that something here is not working the way it is supposed to.
  • i think need rework on sin skill i guess after few buff changes no one is using sin anymore..1st reason the hide buff i dont know how does it apply but sometimes it only lasts for 12 sec and cd like 30 sec -.- what's the point of that..it doesnt appear 12 sec so much but when you in need of using it it give 12 sec and you are screwed in pvp or pve..2ndly the cre up buff or something like that i think the old buff is better as it last longer too the new buff is like after i execute it it will stop like few sec by the time i got chance to hit enemy the buff is over...
    i dont really know other sp XD but i guess should try on improving sp that are less likely used like des,ranger(nowdays quite rare to see one on pvp or pve on high lvl)and cs maybe...
  • °BowFlex° wrote:

    Warrior change cd from 30 sec to 45
    Scout - invis removed when hit
    Assasin - Revert cri up buff and lower bleed chance

    Dh (sp7 archer)- Lower buff cd
    Make hawk eye onky give hitrate it makes people with +0 eqs hit over 10kdmg
    Agreed. And i would like to add to the list the darkgunner - too many buff remove kills, the buff that has 80% chance and it remove buff ,it bugs the monk buff when i try to buff up, it bugs me and i cannot recive any monk buff,It is a "cheat" sp into pvp , and im not the only player who says it, it is way too cheaty.So yes nerf it
    It's me the "greedy" UK fighter

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  • Bemte wrote:

    Ok, let's start with not bashing the annoying scouts.
    Yes, they are annoying, one shotting almost everyone, etc., but I don't think the reason for that is that they are overpowered.
    It is more that scout players specialize on that one aspect, they have weapons and shells specially for reducing enemies deff and water ressistance, the scout is often their only good SP, they are full buffed,...
    A scout is in general not stronger than any other SP.
    complete nonsense, scout is broken thus equip users r5 and below doing stupid damage vs r7

    swordie death reaper needs complete rework, most broken unused sp ingame, if any 1 cares to explain its purpose at this point, rangers hawkeye needs a lower hit rate to create a balance in pvp, currently it ignores blades dodge buff and any dodge related buffs,
    sin charge needs be disabled from passing to other sp's
    dark gunner, reduction on crit damage/rate, currently broken while no access to lv10 cellon options for inc crit reduction
    all sp's should be given +1 move speed, as thats the new thing from sp5 onwards
    rene more dark ele skills
  • To keep this clean I would like to ask everyone to completely ignore what other people's suggestions are.
    Do not quote do not reply to each other or this is going to end up into a fight discussion.

    Simply write what you think is wrong with the SPs and what would you like changed. Doesn't matter if someone suggest for scout to get buffed or deleted from the game, simply ignore it.
  • Assassin - return the buff into old one lol.
    Destoryer - make the mines and bomb into % dmg.
    Demon hunter - i would reduce the cooldown of the buff as it take too long to get the third buff
    Avenging angel - As it use Dagger and 2 skill is bow. Allow it's skill to be bow rather than dagger lol so more people will use.

    Want a Siggy? Private message me Must provide a screenshot
  • These are my suggestions although im skeptical of how this will pan out:

    • sp 1 - make iron skin longer
    • sp 2 - good as is
    • sp 3 - good as is
    • sp 4 - maybe make casting time on rage, frenzy and final shorter
    • sp 5 - increase duration of victory buff; remove counterattack buff from knockdown
    • sp 6 - good as is
    • sp 7 - freekin rework everything including mana costs, nobody can use dr.
    • sp 8 - fine as is, possibly one more or few dark ele skills
    • sp 1 - good as is
    • sp 2 - bring back old hb :c
    • sp 3 - mana shield would be nice
    • sp 4 - lowering the buff removal chance would be nice
    • sp 5 - good as is
    • sp 6 - considering this is a pvp sp - increase base stats for auto
    • sp 7- good as is
    • sp 8 - good as is
    • sp 1 - rework hawk
    • sp 2 - old cre up and hide :D
    • sp 3 - bring back cure effect on skill
    • sp 4 - good as is
    • sp 5 - good as is
    • sp 6 - hide interrupt on hit
    • sp 7 - good as is
    • sp 8 - good as is
  • Archer:
    -Sp1 more damage
    -Sp2 full rework...it is kinda useless for pve and not even ok for pvp anymore
    -Sp3 full rework...keep the minitraps only,for raids
    -Sp4 doesnt need rework
    -Sp5 update the lv 20 job abillity so it could attack flying units
    -Sp6 some abillities of it are useless...make it aoe so we can even farm with it please
    -Sp7 is good but add some buff skill
    -Sp8 rework the buff please and the range,he needs more range

    -Sp1 is too fragile
    -Sp2 some of the abillities are useless...do something about that
    -Sp3 it is good,does not need rework
    -Sp4 too many useless debuffs...make it more aoe so we can farm with it too
    -Sp5 is great just upgrade the final skill so it can hit flying units
    -Sp6 is using too much mana and siren song is ridiculous....
    -Sp7 is kinda useless....it needs upgrades...more aoe, more attack speed
    -Sp8 has great abilities but long cd on lv 18 and 20 job skills, so reduce it, and some of the abilities are useless...give it some more attack skills and mby a buff
    -Sp1 bring back the iron skin buff just the way it was please
    -Sp2 it is too slowly...it takes 2 min to cast an ability
    -Sp3 needs more attack skills,more aoe's
    -Sp4 the attack buff reduces too much of the player's def
    -Sp5 it needs more dmg, it needs to be able to attack flying units and a rework of buff skill is required too
    -Sp6 is good,doesnt need rework
    -Sp7 is kinda unpopular cuz of its skills,it needs more dmg
    -Sp8 is very anoying...it doesnt feel right using 2 diferent fairies on the same sp

    In conclusion, please let the skills attack flying units!! it is very anoying!!
  • Kinda getting the vibe "Let's nerf archers, and boost everything else".

    Make WK's normal hit an aoe - same as Arch Mage.
    Blue mage really needs a mana buff.
    Nerf warriors, morale and shield.
    Nerf assassin's buff.
    Nerf scout's defense buff.
    Upgrade CS's defense buff
    Upgrade WK hit range!
    Nerf DG's critical chance
    A nice stun on scout would be good.
  • Most importantly
    1. Decrease Archer sp1 Hawk eye damage increase effect

    The range of range attack has been nearly doubled since the release of latest patch, this means that the damage increase effect of hawk eye is also doubled(and scout has even longer attack range). That is why range attack damage is so broken and outstanding in the current situation.
    Or, changing it in to a self-casting-only buff will also do well.

    2. Mana shields
    Whatever, higher buff lvl/lower cd
    just make it easier to be maintained and dont let lucifer's debuff remove the mana shields
    Changing it into toggle mechanism just like the monk's buddha's words will be the best.

    3. Self-casting-only buffs
    They need higher buff lvl so that they cannot be easily removed. These buffs are important because they are essential to make a SP special

    Besides these three, I really dont think there are any other necessary SP change
    I believe the greatest problem comes from the badly designed orange effect of weapons/armor

    Other minor but not urgent change
    The main reason why sp1~4 is always not preferred to sp5~8 is cd time. For farming, aoe with low cd is always preferred because it has higher dps and higher flexibility. I think the developers really should make more use of the cd and mp system.

    I mean, the design of DR is actually quite good with its low CD high burst damage, compensated with its high mp cost, only if there is nothing wrong with swordie's hit rate. Actually the mp cost of DR skills is not that bad, beside the mp reduction overtime
    from the skill spirit catcher.

    Every 2 seconds:MP is reduced by(player level*3) <------------------this really destroy the whole sp

    Finally, I personally prefer some quality number changes rather than simply adding new mechanics for balancing. It will be easier to modify and not likely to bring new problems up.
  • Holy Mage

    Holy mage should get AoE basic attack or increase AoE of his 2 attacks and lower cooldown of a hammer (Because not every mage player has Foxy)
    I would also recommend recreating the undead killing spell which is in most cases pretty useless except that anti-crit. buff and you cannot even hit a drake

    I would decrease casting time of ninja's skills and make his animation little bit quicker

    I think that's good to have PvP buff on the other hand on level 46 when you get this card it's pretty useless because mostly you don't do PvP that much on that level except AoT

    Decrease cooldown of his healing skill

    Also, increase chance for spreading slow


    Increase duration of Iron skin - at least 60 seconds because if you want to lure something your buff ends before you can finish the lure

    Decrease mana costs of buffs at level 36 you cannot use all buffs at a time because it costs too much mana unless you have costumes, accessories, wings, etc

    Melee cards
    Should be adjusted so all melee cards will be able to hit drakes in LoD or just put those drakes little bit lower
    Many people there can see just PvP point of view but I do not know a single player who farms something without the card so this should be taken into account in case of a change.

    I am not a big fan of nerfs because it can make cards unplayable in many areas
    Element and damage of all cards' skills should somehow scale with character level mostly for PvM purposes
  • 10 years without a forum account and literally made an account JUST for this...

    It's my least played class so have very little to say on it.
    • SP4
      • That ghost guard buff crit damage bonus seems a little high to me... At least for all the other amazing stats that thing gives.
    • SP8
      • It's heal is awesome. But its CD is way too absurd. Maybe like a 2min CD, with a 1min buff for like 5%/2s? Basically an end game aura.
    • CD on armor skin is too short for effective luring. Even if I had to deal with a 90s CD, 60s duration minimum would be amazingly useful for PVE.

    • Maybe make fear also slow by like 30-50% for pvp? Help with the extreme kiting issues. Would take a morale dodge reduction if it meant I could actually stay on archers.
    • The dash skill has too much lag at the end of the skill. Gap closing means nothing if they run 10 spaces away before I can move. Make this more like zerk's dash skill please. Otherwise a beautiful SP imo.
    • Make it's non-ulti AOE's more consistant. It's practically single target outside of its lvl 20 skill, which usually relegates it to slave buffing duties.
    • Make buffs last 5min. It throws off buff rotations painfully so.
    • Rework the shield thing. Maybe make it like an artillery effect. Once it's turned on, you gain increased range, damage, and defense, but you're unable to move until you toggle it off. Decent cast time for both toggling on AND off.
    • Make HP buff stack with bear please, or make it a higher level buff.
    • Make berserk buff a % damage increase, and a % damage taken increase (not a armor reduction). Makes it more useful later in the game, and makes the defense loss not almost always outweigh the damage buff.
    • Maybe this is too crazy... But can life or death get a BIGGER HP drain per second, and gain the ability to recover a % of the damage delt while its active? Would be a cool unique thing that I think would be awesome and fitting to zerk's kit, and make them more dynamic in PVP.
    • Frenzied strikes could probably use a range buff. For that cast time, it does too small an AOE imo.
    • Change the ultimates debuff to a lvl 5 please. It's one of the best debuffs in the game, but is almost always negated.
    • Change the SP4 dash to work like SP8 dash please. Fits thematically, and is just cooler to control imo.
    • Too much to ask for 2 range AOE on auto? It is a pretty massive axe afterall.
    • Increase chance for knockdown effect on first skill (for reasons later in suggestion)
    • CD's are too long for most skills. But rather than change them, why not double down on knockdown? Whatever attack you use after a knockdown gets a 40% CD reduction. Its a great SP, and CD's are about the only thing that makes it a bit weak imo.
    • Mana reduction on the reflect skill. It's a good skill, just not good enough to cost 15% the average swordies mana pool.
    • Fix the HP buff bug, where it removes other HP buffs even after you go to the damage buff. Or make it stack with other HP buffs please.
    • Rework suggestion for ultimate. Make the player go untargatable like monk ultimate during cast time and semi-dissapear (just cause thematically cool). The ulti then hits 2 AOE around the player, and ALL enemies marked by his fear on the map. Reduce the bonus damage from fear accordingly. Makes his ulti cool and unique.

    • Make its fear lock enemies in place. Makes his combo better in pvp, and prevents him from being physically unable to mob since most skills cause them to run away.
    • Make the soul stealer buff RESTORE mana, not drain it.
    • Increase range of the drag skill by just a bit.
    • Reduce the CDR from the higher level soul siphon buff to 60% from 80%, but make it last longer, so it is maintainable.
    • Increase his dash attacks range by almost double, and increase re-cast time for 2nd half.
    • Make its defense buff have a lower CD.
    • Make his AOE siphon skill restore a % HP. Flat HP heal is basically useless for high HP swordies. Increase mana if needs be, but should be rewarding to land this since its damage is terrible
    • Maybe make debuffs last a little longer. Has amazing debuffs, but they're far too short to capatalize on for the cast times usually. Otherwise an amazing SP
    By far my most played and most loved class for its fun. ESPECIALLY SP2 and SP7.
    • SP1
      • Remove the damage bonus for hawk eye, make it a flat increase, or lock it to a self buff only. The % increase is way too strong for most other classes, especially the ones with 10+ range.
    • SP2
      • MAKE TUMBLE 100% CHANCE TO WORK. Why is there a 20% chance to stand there like an idiot... It is so tilting.
      • MAKE INVIS CONSISTANT. Personally, I'd like to see its mana cost down to 100, its CD down to 10-15 seconds (hear me out...), and its duration a consistant 20-30 seconds with either no move speed slow, or at most a -2. Give most of the assassin's skills a bonus ambush damage, and make assassins play around the stealth dash for maximum damage and mobility. It'd be cool to have this SP actually play around its stealth, rather than it just being a gimmick that's only used for sneaking through places, or to sneak up and cheap people in arena.
      • Chance the armor shred part of the crit buff skill last maybe 10 seconds after the cast. Its the only armor ignoring buff I know of, and cool unique traits are always a + to double down on imo.
      • Sin is by FAR my favorite SP in this game, and I actually loved the reworked crit buff (it's less noob friendly, but is more versatile and cool imo, plus old one is useless with the ulti debuff). The only thing I feel it suffers from is inconsistency from tumble and stealth. PLEASE if nothing else make those two more consistent.
    • SP3
      • Make claymore hit like a truck. It is so hard to land in both PVP AND PVE, and takes so long to cast, so I think its only fair it has absurd damage.
      • Improve fire mine AI. Maybe make them prioritize whatever you were targeting when you summoned them? At the very least, make them prioritize IN combat enemies over NON combat enemies, or the actual closest enemy.
      • Reduce knockbacks cooldown. Would be fun to use it to play around claymore if it got a damage buff.
    • SP4
      • Too strong to ask for buffs, but too much a staple to ask for nerfs lol. Please leave this beautifully OP wolf bear bird person alone.
    • SP5
      • Make the AOE bonus buff last longer than the skills CD. I feel like this is a staple to the CS, and should always be up.
      • Make auto attack AOE (maybe 0 range without buff, so its decent WITH buff). Specially fitting with its buff.
    • SP6
      • Please make it break stealth when it is attacked, or attacks. Why does this have better stealth than an assassin?
      • Please remove the crit damage cap from its buff. Reduction I can see. But this thing has way too many skills to kite and be safe to ALSO be safe when it's hit imo.
    • SP7
      • Honestly my most loved SP in the game. PVE is fun, PVP is fun, and it's actually decent at both. My ONLY request, is PLEASE make the first stage of its buff be the highest level buff. I know, it is logically backwards, but having to wait till all 3 stages of the buff are gone to rebuff is annoying for pacing.
    • SP8
      • Super fun SP but kinda weak if it doesn't crit. Maybe make it follow act 6's rules. Give it a buff that slightly reduces crit damage, but gives a HUGE crit CHANCE buff (like 40%+) and a hit rate buff.
      • The two bow skills kinda feel way too samey. Maybe replace one for the new buff above?
      • Its AOE's are really small, making them hard to consistently land. Archer is also the only class without a voke atm. Maybe on the skill the shocks enemies, make it also pull in all enemies around that target within 6-ish AOE? Would be different from TL and war, since it is enemy based spatially, and would make AA's kit even cooler and more fun to use imo.